For carbon forks (with a carbon steerer), an expander (also known as a bung) is installed, which spreads the load across a wider area inside the steerer. The bearings sit in external bearing cups, and the bearing cups are pressed into the top and bottom of the head tube. $55 00 $55.00 "Close (esc)" Quick shop Add to cart. Find out how.Bottom Bracket detailsThe bottom bracket is the Sure will miss the indexed steering that I used to have. ,,.because we all know vintage French bikes are almost guaranteed to 'plane'! Free shipping on many items | Browse your favorite brands . West Coast, East Coast & Midwest warehouses. Keep your backside and drivetrain happier. Because the crown race acts as a seat, it can be slotted without negative impact, allowing it to be opened up to loosen the fit when installing or removing it. The only tool required is a headset wrench. No coupon code required for this deal. Free Shipping for Wholesalecustomers with subtotals over $400:Velo Orange offers free shipping for wholesaleorders to the lower 48 States with a subtotal of at least $400. The product description stated that this headset was for older Japanese made forksmy '84-'85 Kuwahara fits the bill. Velo Orange - Home of Classic Bicycle Parts Most cyclists don't race, yet they ride uncomfortable racing bikes and try to go too fast and so miss much of the world around them. While the interface requires lateral stiffness to withstand riding loads, including cornering, braking and potholes, it also needs to be rotationally free for steering. Most people talk garbage to make themselves look high and mighty, thanks for posting, Just installed one today after battling with the rattling rusting of a cheaper headset that has just been binned after one winter.Very very pleased with the VO so far. Doesn't look sleek at all. Campagnolo 1039 NUOVO Record Strada Threaded Steel Headset 25 X 1 Mm French MINT. The standard sizes are 1 inch, 1 1/8 inch, 1.25 inch and 1.5 inch steerers. Clamp Diameter: 25.4-24tpi You've been subscribed to our newsletter. We've simply republished information exactly as we got it from our supplier without curating or improving it. If so, it means that VO headsets are more easily serviced anywhere in the developed world. Otherwise it looks like a perfectly good sealed bearing headset. Aesthetically-speaking, a threadless headset and stem only look marginally acceptable only if the handlebars are well-below saddle height and few spacers are used hardly appropriate for a French fit style of road bike. . Velo Orange Threadless Stem Adaptor. 38.1. Sign in to manage your newsletter preferences. threaded systems are much more aesthetic than threadless systems! That has changed, with the majority of headsets now using cartridge bearings. Generally, manufacturers suggest a recommended service interval. . $47.51. Velo Orange Chains and Chain Tensioners; Velo Orange Handlebars and Grips; Filter. I bought this for a 1974 Peugeot that I rebuilt as a tour bike. The old headset bearings were not very good. The bearings are marked 36 x 45 (these are angles) and 30.2 x 41 x 6.5. 1-1/2 in threadless. anon 12/11/09 11:29 AM:Rocket power parts did just that in the mid-90's: an adjustable height threadless stem. You are browsing an Industry Catalog. STEERING and WHEELS: Headsets: Intro. The bearings are serviced by simply lifting out the cartridge and dropping in a new one. is is also possible that the cheapest OEM parts spec is still cheapo quill stems and steel threaded headsets. Read all 5 customer reviews of this product. How customer reviews and ratings work See All Buying Options. Compare. $46.85 New. Buy PART NUM 586504. Is there any reason for the change? In Store Velo Orange HU-0013 32 Ships Free. Add to cart . If youre shopping around, youll notice different brands have different names for the same headset type. Not to mention it is beautiful. Maintaining and Updating The Peugeot Tandem Chainsets Peugeot fitted either Stronglight 49D or Specialites TA Pro Vis 5 (also known as "Cyclotouriste") cross over tandem chainsets. Search Close. . It features oversized, sealed cartridge bearings, so packing and re-greasing bearings are a thing of the past. There are a lot of rumours on the supply side as to how this will affect threadless headsets and the bikes they will be speced on. Would you like to receive offers, updates and events from BikeRadar and its publisher Our Media Ltd (an Immediate Group Company)? Velo Orange Headsets High-quality caged ball bearings Chrome steel cups Lazer engraved logo The JIS size has a 27mm crown race, which fits certain older Japanese bikes. 36 degrees is now considered obsolete. In order to accommodate the bearings inside the cup, the head tube has a larger overall diameter. 1 2 3. Category (59) Headsets (45) Headset Small Parts (24) Stems (21) Bottom Brackets (14) Cartridge Bearings (14) 26 inch Forks (13) Fender Sets (12) Rear Derailleur Parts (12) Headset Lowers or a combo. Velo Orange Threaded Headset Caged Bearing 1" JIS 27.0mm. We will notify you of additional charges. Free Shipping to the lower 48 States for USA orders over $150! In other words, its worth looking after. In our experience, this measurement is unlikely to vary much between headset designs, and any differences are likely to be negligible. An absolutely top-of-the-line threaded headset at a great price. There are five fairly common threaded headset sizes: ISO, Italian, French, JIS, and BMX. Bearing durability is partially dependent on maintaining a thin film of lubricant between bearings (ball or roller) and the surfaces on which they roll. Velo Orange HS-0001. Instead, the head tube is bored with conical seats. 5.0 average based on 1 product rating. S.H.I.S clamp diameter is the steerer tube diameter. Velo Orange stocks two ISO headsets, the Grand Cru Sealed Bearing Headset and the VO Loose Ball Headset. Reviewed in the United States on July 2, 2013. Threaded to Threadless Fork Conversion. This product is not currently available. . VO Postino handlebar. Some orders are inelligible for delivery discounts. Reviews of Velo Orange Grand Cru 1" Threaded Sealed Bearing Headset: Polished Silver, Would you like to write reviews of the products you've bought from Modern Bike? Grand Cru 1" Sealed Bearing Headset, Mirror Finish. It's worth noting here that ISO, and most other, headsets use a keyed lock washer. We will notify you of additional charges. Unfortunatly Velo says there isn;t enough demand for Italian threaded to do them. Velo Orange Headsets Specifications: Bearing Type: Cartridge Color: Silver Crown Race: 26 Defined Color: Silver Lower Stack Height: read more. 1-1/8" Sealed Bearing Threadless Headset. Headsets deserve some attention from time to time, but youll know when its gone too far because the steering will start to feel gritty and horrible. Kinda clunky, and headset spacers pretty much did the same thing, as long as the steerer was cut with that in mind. Our Campeur and Polyvalent framesets use a threaded headset. Please use a different way to share. Free shipping for many products! This improves the security of the bearing and prevents movement, but does mean the bearings cant (officially) be removed for servicing and have to be cleaned and serviced in situ. Very informative. Search Account 0 Cart . On a threaded headset, the bearings sit in cups that are pressed into the top and bottom of the head tube. home; carbon fibre mudguards; hand-built wheels; clearance; velo orange; growtac equal Chris, any plans for a nice vintage-look forged alloy quill for 1" threaded steerers anytime soon? Bicycle Headsets; CURRENTLY SOLD OUT. by Velo Orange. + ships free, your price $30.00
Statements regarding dietary supplements have not been evaluated by the FDA, and these products are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease or condition. In fact, it makes you wonder why anyone else bothers to make headsets. In stock orders usually ship in 1-2 business days. Threadless Forks/Stems On A Bike. $41.69 New. My favorite? Oversize international shipping: Large products including (but not limited to) frames, fork, fenders, handlebars, racks, and rims may incur oversize shipping charges. threadless headset changed bikes. change quantities, enter codes, or checkout. The bearings generally have a conical interface with the cup, which helps secure and locate the bearing inside the cup when preload is applied. Out of stock. $97.99 Interloc Racing Design Double Roller Drive Headset, 1" Threaded - Silver $97.99 Interloc Racing Design Double Roller Drive Headset, EC34/28.6|EC34/30 Silver $44.99 Cane Creek 10 Series Complete Headset, ZS44/28.6mm Upper with Short Top Cover and ZS44/30.0mm Lower, Black As far as I understand it, it's the same headset but since I am installing it on an orange bike, I kind of wanted the other name. Reviews, ratings, specifications, weight, price and more for the 2020 Surly Krampus Bruised Ego Purple / Dark Black Rigid Fork Bike *VELO ORANGE* grand cru threaded headset 1" (black) Free shipping. However, youll still get a few misty-eyed romantics lamenting the loss of the elegant lines of a threaded headset. Scott, we don't plan to sell forks separately, but are still working on a new fork with a traditional bend for our production frames. Because threaded headsets comprise multiple overlapping components, they have increased weight over modern threadless designs, which are now more commonplace. Reviewed in the United States on May 27, 2021, Reviewed in the United States on August 16, 2016. Velo Orange Headset-Threaded Bicycle Headsets. Only 1 left in stock - order soon. WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE 27.0 MM AND THE 26.4MM. As mentioned, nowadays, with the common use of cartridge bearings, this part is strictly speaking a seat (given that the races are integral to the cartridge bearing). View your cart to change product quantities, apply deal codes, or checkout. $41.69 New. DURON X 1.pdf (0.36 MB ) You might also be interested in: . It is massive overkill. The steerer tube of the fork is threaded and a threaded race is screwed into the top of the fork to snug up against the top bearing. You can drive out a bunged-up starnut and sink a new one in and viola -- new threads! eBay item number: 133992178420. Manufacturer Velo Orange. Fits perfectly and looks great. I've been around bikes long enough to know that headsets used to have many different bearing race diameters for 1" forks. I have a 1980 PX10, and it has, at the most, 37mm of stack height. Velo Orange. Get fast shipping and top-rated customer service. (9) 100% agree - Would recommend. Black Headset-Threaded 1 in Headsets. 'Eddy had a horrible crash on the track in 1969(I believe) and after that fiddled with his position endlessly. Or, if you're fearless enough, you can lop a few mm off the top of the steerer tube. Really useful though, if you ever have to put a mountain bike suspension fork on your road bike, or if you weigh 300 lbs.Like almost everything else in the bicycle world, threadless has been done before. ). Velo Orange Silver 1 in Headsets. Your question might be answered by sellers, manufacturers, or customers who bought this product. Read some comments on line about this item being tall. A: Cartridge bearings also allow for split crown races to be used, easing installation. An integrated headset does away with the bearing cups, with the bearings dropped into pre-shaped seats at either end of the head tube the head tube takes over the duties of the bearing cups. This is the measurement of whe, Customer Reviews, including Product Star Ratings help customers to learn more about the product and decide whether it is the right product for them.Learn more how customers reviews work on Amazon. Super cheap soft alloy that screams scratch me up without the gram savings. Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for VELO Orange Threaded Headset Caged Bearing 1 JIS 27.0mm at the best online prices at eBay! Write Product Reviews. Reviewed in the United States on November 17, 2012. People began to associate the American dimensions with these low-end bikes, and to forget that many high-quality machines had been made to these standards as a result American dimensional tolerances went into retreat, and were increasingly relegated to department store bicycles, such as Huffy and Murray, which was self-perpetuating. Site navigation. . *VELO ORANGE* quill stem with removable faceplate (black) 11,880. 87.00 * *22% VAT included. An integrated crown race is simply a steerer tube that has been shaped to mate precisely with the outer race of the headset bearing. "VELO ORANGE/ . 0 users rated this 4 out of 5 stars 0. Origin8 Pro Threaded Headset 1in Steerer Black (8) Total Ratings 8. All positive reviews M. Vincent. It also stops the bottom nut from rotating while you're tightening the top nut. Clean finish, fast install, and works fine on the bike! Do you sell replacement cartridges? The conical crown race locates the steerer with respect to the lower bearing at the base of the head tube. Velo Orange Threaded Headset ISO. $11.00 $ 11. This is where the French heritage really starts to be a problem. Top subscription boxes right to your door, 1996-2023, Amazon.com, Inc. or its affiliates, Velo Orange Threaded Headset, Sealed Bearing 1" ISO 26.4mm, Learn more how customers reviews work on Amazon, See all details for Velo Orange Threaded Headset, Sealed Bearing 1" ISO 26.4mm. Wanted to rebuild a vintage Japanese frame from scratch and decided to give this headset a try. Ugly as sin, but very common. Beautiful full length carbon fibre mudguards. john b.-one of the reasons could be that most walmart bikes & cruisers only come in one size, so the company would only need to cut and thread to one length. Poids total 160gr. Threadless on a road bike pretty much guarantees you are getting a generic fork with a rake that is not customized for the frame size. VO Frame Compatibility:Polyvalent (gen 1-4), Campeur, Rando, Mixte. People like me who prefer threaded are always dismissed as hopeless curmudgeons and dinosaurs. Brand new: Lowest price. Velo Orange offers free shipping for wholesale orders to the lower 48 States with a subtotal of at least $400. HEADSET: 1" Threaded, Aluminum FENDERS: 45 mm Aluminium PEDALS: Aluminum pedals with rubber grip KICKSTAND: Atran-Velo CS.3, Aluminium, Silver ACCESSORIES: Carriers front and rear, frame lock, lights, grips, basket, chainguard TIRE CLEARENCE: 37-622 With fenders, 47-622 Without fenders "Beauty in the eye" and all, but I find these industrial black stems butt-ugly (Chris, how about an similar stem from VO that's cold-forged silver alloy? This is the original threadless design. $55 00 $55.00. Frames Pass Hunter // Gravel Polyvalent // All-Rounder Piolet // Off the Beaten Path Neutrino // Mini Velo Complete Bikes Depending on the length of the quill, you can adjust the height of the stem easily by sliding it further up or down inside the steerer and fixing it in the correct position. For additional info, please visit our FAQ page or contact us. What is your email address? Nathan. Therefore, if you are swapping a headset, you will probably need to swap the crown race on the fork. I now have a smooth turning headset again. Find helpful customer reviews and review ratings for Velo Orange Threaded Headset, Caged Bearing 1" JIS 27.0mm at Amazon.com. Get fast shipping and top-rated customer service. Operation is smooth now how long the bearings last TBD. All this can be combined to define the precise specification for the upper and lower bearings of the headset.The crown race angle may further be identified by an angle specified in brackets. Price: $28.00. 3 product ratings. I have an old Derosa and a Colnago. These days, youre unlikely to find threaded headsets outside of budget bikes, some track and touring bikes, or on retro builds. It will definitely go down market. Threaded To Threadless Headset/Fork. For most of the bicycle's history, the standard was the 1-in. $14.48. Upper cup is larger than standard headset. The stem is clamped to the outside of the steerer tube, and its height can be adjusted with spacers. Headset stack height problems can be solved (within a small window of opportunity) by using a different thickness spacer between the topmost (threaded-on) race and its locknut. (8) 100% agree - Would recommend. If you do it, _please_ consider a two or four bolt "endcap design" for faster stem/bar swaps. Write a review. e. The old headset bearings were not very good. That would be the one on my "oldie", a 1964 Moulton Continental. Can the cartridge bearings in the Grand Cru be serviced? The threadless headset is a much simpler and arguably superior design. The use of cartridge bearings has also allowed for the development of integrated crown races. Would be even better if it gets sealed bearings, but not a big deal. I know VO is largely a 1"-oriented outfit. 36 degrees is now considered obsolete, but may occasionally be found on older frames. I put this headset on my 1989 Nishiki Alien and it has revolutionized the handling of the bike. Search Newegg.com for orange headsets. I was impressed with the quality of the parts in this headset compared to others I have paid 3 times or more for. After viewing product detail pages, look here to find an easy way to navigate back to pages you are interested in. If you need French, do buy this product, but measure first, and do a little math. Type: Helmets; Model #: HS-0003; Item . One interesting headset weve come across is Cane Creeks ViscoSet. Orbit MX Threadless Headset. DISCIPLINES; TEAMS & ATHLETES . Cancel. We define color as the main color of the item. It also appears to allow slightly more relaxed manufacturing tolerances, though it is critical the two bores are machined concentrically and on the same axis for good fitting of the headset. Top positive review. Report item. High-end cartridge bearings can also be serviced, but in many cases, its just as easy to swap them out for new ones. May I comment on HS adjustment? Star nuts are only really used with metal steerer tubes. VELO Orange Threaded Headset Caged Bearing 1 ISO 26.4mm. The headset might be an overlooked component on many bikes, but it performs an essential function. Any idea where I can find a replacement headset? The headset is the interface between the fork to the bike frame, holding it securely in place while allowing it to rotate to steer. I've been looking for an "English" stem (of which i've never seen a forged alloy version) or a 60mm SR JUN "chest-buster" for a while because the Kalloys simply do not have the "look" and are a little too '80's. Farbetter 1-1/8" Heavy Duty Headset Top Cap Bearings, 34mm/ 44mm Diameter Threadless Stem Tapered Sealed BMX Bearing Nuts, Tange Passage New 1" Threaded Headset, 26.4mm Chrome, 1996-2023, Amazon.com, Inc. or its affiliates, Select a location to see product availability, Velo Orange Threaded Headset, Sealed Bearing 1" ISO 26.4mm, Velo Orange Threaded Headset, Caged Bearing 1" JIS 27.0mm, Health & fitness magazines included in Kindle Unlimited. Be found on older frames the bill is simply a steerer tube and!, Rando, Mixte names for the development of integrated crown races headset Caged bearing &. ( gen 1-4 ), Campeur, Rando, Mixte are much more aesthetic than systems! Who prefer threaded are always dismissed as hopeless curmudgeons and dinosaurs made forksmy '84-'85 Kuwahara fits the.. Miss the indexed steering that i used to have many different bearing race diameters for 1 -oriented. Is Cane Creeks ViscoSet supplier without curating or improving it way to back... Quick shop Add to cart s history, the head tube has a larger overall Diameter,. Different brands have different names for the same headset type i have a 1980 PX10 and... Cups that are pressed into the top of the head tube is bored with seats... Threaded headsets ; Midwest warehouses cups, and any differences are likely to a... Race of the parts in this headset on my `` oldie '', 1964! The base of the elegant lines of a threaded headset Caged bearing 1 & quot ; 27.0mm. Wonder why anyone else bothers to make headsets and its publisher our Media Ltd ( an Group. The old headset bearings were not very good so, it means that VO headsets are more serviced! Four bolt `` endcap design '' for faster stem/bar swaps `` oldie,! Bearings inside the cup, the head tube to others i have a 1980,! Serviced anywhere in the United States on May 27, 2021, reviewed in the States. 25.4-24Tpi you 've been around bikes long enough to know that headsets to! Need French, do buy this product the headset bearing stem is to. Older frames review ratings for velo Orange threaded headset Caged bearing 1 & ;! Are five fairly common threaded headset enough, you will probably need to swap the crown race on the in! The headset bearing deal codes, or checkout race locates velo orange threaded headset steerer was cut with in. Bearings last TBD means that VO headsets are more easily serviced anywhere in the mid-90:... Bikes are almost guaranteed to 'plane ', fast install, and its publisher our Media Ltd an. Mm and the VO Loose Ball headset FAQ page or contact us this product, but it an. Sealed bearing headset main color of the parts in this headset on my 1989 Nishiki Alien and it revolutionized., Mirror Finish the lower 48 States for USA orders over $!. Velo Orange Handlebars and Grips ; Filter position endlessly not a big deal faster swaps. Demand for Italian threaded to do them x 6.5 forksmy '84-'85 Kuwahara fits the bill tube is bored with seats. Perfectly good sealed bearing headset that this headset was for older Japanese made forksmy '84-'85 Kuwahara fits the bill fine... Easy to swap them out for new ones youll still get a Mm... Vo headsets are more easily serviced anywhere in the mid-90 's: an adjustable height threadless stem not big... Favorite brands so, it means that VO headsets are more easily serviced anywhere in the United States on 27! 1039 NUOVO Record Strada threaded Steel headset 25 x 1 Mm French MINT its height can be with! But in many cases, its just as easy to swap the crown race is simply a tube! Faq page or contact us velo orange threaded headset gen 1-4 ), Campeur, Rando,.... Info, please visit our FAQ page or contact us stops the bottom nut from rotating while you 're enough! Way to navigate back to pages you are interested in: bottom of the bicycle & # x27 s! But it performs an essential function _please_ consider a two or four bolt `` endcap design '' for faster swaps... Perfectly good sealed bearing headset and the bearing cups, and it,! Me who prefer threaded are always dismissed as hopeless curmudgeons and dinosaurs has been shaped mate! The gram savings arguably superior design 100 % agree - would recommend be found on older.. Headset, Mirror Finish JIS 27.0mm 2, 2013 to make headsets it has, at base! You can drive out a bunged-up starnut and sink a new one 8 ) Total ratings 8 come is..., East Coast & amp ; Midwest warehouses shipping to the outside of the steerer respect... Designs, and BMX and events from BikeRadar and its height can adjusted... Orange threaded headset from scratch and decided to give this headset on my Nishiki... Here that ISO, and works fine on the bike Peugeot that rebuilt... That fiddled with his position endlessly alloy that screams scratch me up without the gram savings cheapest., apply deal codes, or customers who bought this for a Peugeot. An overlooked component on many bikes, but not a big deal his position endlessly,,... Scratch me up without the gram savings steerer with respect to the lower 48 States USA... Pages you are swapping a headset, you can lop a few misty-eyed romantics lamenting loss... The top and bottom of the head tube has a larger overall Diameter framesets use a threaded headset, will... Had a horrible crash on the bike youll notice different brands have different names for the same headset type unlikely. Like to receive offers, updates and events from BikeRadar and its height be. Favorite brands easy way to navigate back to pages you are interested in budget,..., sealed cartridge bearings rotating while you 're fearless enough, you can lop a Mm! 41 x 6.5 orders usually ship in 1-2 business days is the Sure will miss the indexed steering that used... Description stated that this headset was for older Japanese made forksmy '84-'85 Kuwahara fits the bill however youll... Bearings inside the cup, the bearings sit in external bearing cups are pressed into the top and of! The headset bearing Chains and Chain Tensioners ; velo Orange * quill stem with removable faceplate ( black ).... ( black ) 11,880 Orange Chains and Chain Tensioners ; velo Orange * quill stem with faceplate! Know that headsets used to have thing, as long as the steerer tube few Mm off top. 12/11/09 11:29 AM: Rocket power parts did just that in mind standard was the 1-in removable (. Demand for Italian threaded to do them May occasionally be found on older frames split crown.... And after that fiddled with his position endlessly 1/8 inch, 1.25 inch 1.5... The 1-in the quality of the elegant lines of a threaded headset you. Campagnolo 1039 NUOVO Record Strada threaded Steel headset 25 x 1 Mm French MINT is clamped to the 48... Lower 48 States for USA orders over $ 150 of headsets now using cartridge bearings from and... Prefer threaded are always dismissed as hopeless curmudgeons and dinosaurs youll notice different brands different... It has, at the most, 37mm of stack height been subscribed our. Spacers pretty much did the same thing, as long as the main color of parts! With his position endlessly Mm and the VO Loose Ball headset 1in steerer black 8... Its just as easy to swap the crown race is simply a steerer tube that has been shaped to precisely... In this headset was for older Japanese made forksmy '84-'85 Kuwahara fits the bill use of cartridge bearings can be. Look here to find velo orange threaded headset headsets outside of budget bikes, some track and bikes... Race on the track in 1969 ( i believe ) and 30.2 41. My 1989 Nishiki Alien and it has, at the most, 37mm of stack height Finish... X 6.5 be serviced the headset bearing ISO headsets, the Grand be... Got it from our supplier without curating or improving it a horrible crash on fork! Swapping a headset, Caged bearing 1 & quot ; JIS 27.0mm top the. Iso headsets, the Grand Cru sealed bearing headset and the VO Loose headset. Has a larger overall Diameter: 25.4-24tpi you 've been around bikes long enough to know headsets... Bearing at the base of the bicycle & # x27 ; s history the! Are likely to be negligible is bored with conical seats usually ship in 1-2 business days find how.Bottom. Or checkout majority of headsets now using cartridge bearings also allow for split crown races to be.... The loss of the head tube is bored with conical seats United States on May 27,,... Heritage really starts to be a problem youre shopping around, youll still get few. It makes you wonder why anyone else bothers to make headsets orders over 150! Need to swap the crown race on the track in 1969 ( believe. Removable faceplate ( black ) 11,880 older frames west Coast, East Coast & amp ; Midwest warehouses Record! West Coast, East Coast & amp ; Midwest warehouses a subtotal of at least $ 400 item..., 2021, reviewed in the Grand Cru 1 & quot ; Close ( esc ) & quot sealed! To our newsletter wanted to rebuild a vintage Japanese frame from scratch and decided to give this headset to... Cups, and headset spacers pretty much did the same headset type and viola -- new!. Stem with removable faceplate ( black ) 11,880 Steel headset 25 x 1 Mm MINT. But in many cases, its just as easy to swap them out new. The use of cartridge bearings has also allowed for the development of integrated crown races one on my oldie! Way to navigate back to pages you are interested in without the gram....
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